Category: philosophy/religion topics
I have been church searching for years now and I can't find one that fits my idea of a good church. Most that I've been to are very judgmental, radical extremists. I am a Christian, but I refuse to believe that blind people should be happy simply as church goers and not made to feelincluded and acceptedlike everyone else. I once had a pastor tell me that when he sees a disabled person come in, he feels pity for them and wouldn't want to place extra burden on themby letting them volunteer or serve.Most churches also just simply can't take the fact that my husband and I are happy the way we are and do not want to be healed of our blindness.
I am looking for a church that believes in the Christian Faith but is more or less "open-minded." Women can be ministers, anyone can volunteer and be apart of things, anyone is accepted and loved regardless or race, culture, sexual orientation, disability. I don't know... Maybe I'm having a pie-in-the-sky dream, but there's gotta be a denomination or something that is more or less a loving, accepting community who want to help but don't want you healed.
There is, its called the humanist church. However, it is not christian, its just... well... humanist. They don't think the bible is all knowing, or even correct, or even really that good a read. They read things like richard dawkins, and christopher hitchins. They may, or may not believe in a god, or goddess, or the plural thereof. They believe you should be nice and kind simply because you're human, and that's what you should do. If you don't want to be healed, they go, "Ok, here's a biscuit". Assuming they were serving biscuits that day. Basically, its a church where you all get together, talk about different ideas, and then go home for a cold beer and fried chicken. But you'll be accepted no matter what. Its really very interesting.
If such a church exists, Brandi, I haven't yet found it. If you do, let me know. I'd sure like to hear about it.
I wonder about the Unitarian Universalist church. Not even sure if that's a Christian one but a few people I've run into on the net seem to like it. Now, I don't know how more or less likely they'll think you just want to either get healed or just be a congregation member but not otherwise get involved in the church, but who knows. Could also be that the problem may not be the church, but that the damn things are just populated by humans who are subject to human nature despite any religious sales pitch.
I'm not going to push my own church on you Sunshine. What I will say is that yes, we are all human and we do all make human mistakes, regardless of which church we belong to. I really love and respect my church for its beliefs, and also for how I am viewed as a worth-while member. But I also know regardless of how my beliefs seem right to me, they aren't for everyone. Are you looking for a place to belong, where you can hang out just for the heck of it? Or are you interested in developing a greater relationship and understanding of jesus Christ and the scriptures? Many churches offer many things. If the latter, all I can urge you to do sadly is Remember the Savior, and his teachings. Be a Christian. With so many viewpoints in Christianity, it's inevitable that some churches of some denominations are going to lose sight of why they're there in the first place. Many are happier to worship the church, rather than the Savior. Keep searching. Find a place whose morals and beliefs and teachings mirror your own. Even though the anti-religious among us will scoff, I also urge you to pray sincerely about this. It's not always easy to recognize an answer when it is given, But prayer does work. Those who truly follow the gospel of Jesus Christ will see beyond your blindness and will accept you as a person. But even they sometimes need educating about our capabilities.
Personally, this is the reason I stopped attending church. Any kind of congregation, whether religious, educational, or otherwise, has its drama. A group of people getting together for a common interest will have uncommon variations in personality. I respect your decision to try to find an open-minded church, but unfortunately, it's society that's not particularly open-minded in general, and of course, the people of society who make places like churches unwelcoming. Then again, I'm a pretty solitary person. I don't feel welcome in groups. I don't feel comfortable going with the flow and catering to the popular opinion just because it will make things run smoothly. So what would I know about belonging, and finding peace in it? Either way, it's your decision. And honestly, it's probably not going to be about a particular denomination that's known for its open-mindedness, but a particular group of people at whatever church you choose who just happen to be decent human beings. For example, maybe you go to a Methodist church (I'm using that because that's what denomination I was raised in) and you feel welcome. But in another town, you would try another church of the same denomination, and everyone is ignorant. It can happen, and another part of it is instinctual too. If you feel any kind of tension in the people you talk to, ieven if they don't express outright hostility, it's probably best to search elsewhere. Some people are better at that than others, but those are just my thoughts.
And true those thoughts are. Couldn't have put it better.
The downside is, and I'm going to ruffle a few feathers here, religions by nature are closed minded. The basis of any religion is that they are right, and everyone else is wrong.
Don't believe me, take a look. Every single one of the religions which has ever existed has said that if you do not believe as they do, and agree with what they say, you will go to hell, burn in fire, be drowned under oceans, not enter the promised land, blah blah blah. Whatever their version of hell is, that's what you'll do if you don't do exactly as they say.
Religions, by design, are my way or the highway clubs. You either follow their rulebook, or you are wrong. There's no in between. People may want to believe there is an in between, but when it comes down to it, they don't.
Ask a baptist where a catholic will end up when they die, he'll say hell. Ask the catholic about the baptist, hell. Ask a muslim about a jew, hell. Ask a street preacher about damn near everybody, hell. Ask anyone about anyone else, and if they are religious, that other person is going to hell. And what's more, its their fault, and its the person your asking's responsibility to save them from it.
So, in conclusion, if you truly want acceptance for who you are, and nothing more than that. If you want to be able to believe exactly as you like, without anyone telling you that you're breaking rules. If you want to be blind, and be happy with it because its the life you've been living for years. If you want to be who you are and absolutely nothing else, be an atheist. Remove God from your life entirely, and I promise you you will find a peace that no religion can grant.
That's my shpeel. I look forward to the rebuttles.
There is a certain degree of closed-mindedness no matter the group. Even the blind community has its decent share of very closed-minded and set-in-their-ways individuals. But Christianity itself isn't the cause; the people, inspired by their ideals pass judgment on others for a variety of reasons. For instance, my church has a very different view of the life beyond mortality than a simple black and white heaven and hell. Our church teaches compassion and kindness, and to be slow to judge others, because we all choose our own paths. We all have the freedom to live our lives according to our own desires. Are there precepts which we abide by in order to "strive" to lead a life more harmonious to that of Jesus Christ? Absolutely. Are there consequences for some of our misdeeds? Of course. Every action - good or bad - has a consequence, whether you're religious or not. But how one person lives their life has little effect on our own lives. Yet even we have our share of judgmental and closed-minded people. I imagine some of that judgement stems from the thought "well if I'm working hard to live well, why isn't everyone else?" But I think what foreknowledge we have about the consequences of our actions leads us to want to help people from making the wrong choices. Of course some people are simply nosy and judgmental. Either way often we (religious or not) pass judgment and have bad aditudes towards others when simply being understanding and compassionate is enough.
I for one will never tell a person that they're bound for hell because they live a certain way, both because I don't believe it's that simple, and because it's really none of my business.
I tend to agree with Lightning. I won't go so far as to call myself an Atheist (I'd consider myself more of an Agnostic). All Iknow for sure is that over the years I've developed a considerable disdain for and distrust of organized religion. I've had several people, complete strangers, come up to me and do the whole I'll pray for you to get your sight back shpiel, then get mad when I tell them I don't think I'd want my sight back seeing as I never really had it. Then there were those who'd come up to me with these religious papers and tell me to get someone to read them to me because in their words, "I'll get two new eyes when I get to heaven." Like I'd only get one if I didn't. But te thing that reallyy turned me off to religion was the talk about what sin I or my family could have committed that would make god punish me with blindness. And then there were people who kept telling me I ought to not look for a job, not because the economy was busted (and it is), but because god had already decided what job I would have and I just needed to wait for it.
Wow Brian. With those kinds of experiences I can't blame you for a second. Someone actually called your blindness a punishment? And told you not to look for a job? There are some strange ducks in this pond we call life.
I've heard the whole blindness as a punishment bit, but it's usually more of a punishment for the parents than it is for the person who's blind. That's the way I always heard it, anyway. That's why you get the whole pity party, because you're helpless, and your parents committed some unspeakable sin that made you blind, so they should be the ones who get cast down to hell. What a bunch of crap.
I'm currently attending a church, which is a Calvary Chapel here in Albuquerque, and what I try to emphasize to everyone that I know at that church is that blindness is not in any way a burden to what I want to do with my life. We do have some pretty open-minded Christians there at our church, and I've made some very good close friendships with a few people. So what I'd encourage you to do is to find a church that not only preaches the Word of God, but also has a way to get in touch with people and develop a close friendship with them. That's pretty much the only way you're going to convince people that blindness isn't a burden and there are many ways to get around it. If you have a Calvary Chapel in your area, I'd recommend going there, but of course it's up to you which church you want to attend.
But as has already been pointed out, not every church is going to behave the same, even if it claims to be of the same denomenation. So one church might be open-minded but another of the same denomenation could be just the opposite. And no, I've only occasionally been asked what sin my folks could have commited. More often than not I got the I'll pray for you bit or the get someone to read this sacred document to you and you'll get two new eyes when you die bit. Both of these are, I need hardly point out, extremely awkward situations since I have to bite my tongue almost hard enough to draw blood just to keep myself from saying the first thing that pops into my head. And that's that if there is a god and if he'd meant for me to have vision he'd have made sure I'd had it in this life and not some afterlife that may or may not exist.
At The_Blind_Guardian:
True all groups have their close minded folk, however Religion, has the requirement of being closed minded. The bible itself encourages this by stating Not to test god or question his acts or wisdom.
I guess all I can say is this. Christians, or people of any other faith, are only a cross section of society, just as we as blind people are. I've met many a Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc, who are totally open-minded and cool with my blindness. I've met many Atheists or otherwise nonreligious people who are very close-minded, and who labor under all kinds of myths, misconceptions, and stereotypes regarding me and my blindness, and how it affects my life. What I'm driving at is this. Religion itself is not the enemy here, as some seem to think it is. Stereotyping, and lack of willingness to listen and learn are the real problems, whether a person is of any faith or none at all.
Agree with the last post completely.
Alicia: Since Saturday, I have made the decision to go to a new church and we did. Not sure if it's exactly what we're looking for, but it's fairly close.
I've heard some strange things from people over the years, everything from how do you wipe your ass, to God must have punished you, to God must need you to be this way because of some strange higher purpose, all seem to bypass the notion it may just be a current hardware limitation.
Anyone who does say it's the parents I promise an interesting response: I am adopted, and don't know who they are. They gave me up before anyone had yet figured out I was blind. So, biologically, I am a bastard, a role I can fulfill as the occasion calls for it. But adoption is viewed by most to be a benefit to the person in question, and society in general. Plus, the adoptive parents were told ahead of time about the blindness. That ought to rightly confuzzle their small arguments.
I would concur with Alicia for the most part, though.
For a lot of people, those stereotypes, or playing at sheepledom, is a security blanket. Even minor deviations from their preconceived notions will set them off like dramatic teenagers. My personal opinion is that people like that are far less capable than the rest of us, and I tend to treat them as such: interact as little as possible, and vacate the premises.
have you checked out the metropolitan community church? it is Christian but definitely based on the idea of openness, especially towards sexual orientation.
Thank you Sister Dawn. Well Said.
To Agent, your words show how many perspectives there are about the Word of God. I'm not saying the Bible doesn't say that - there are similar passages. But I think there are certainly differing translations, interpretations, and of course, oppinions. Sunshine, I'm glad you may have found something closer to what you're looking for, and I wish you well there.
hey Sunshine... great to hear that you found something close to what you are looking for. As much as I love my church, there are some things that don't always sit well with me... if you (people in general, not you specifically) are looking for a place of worship that fits EXACTLY what you want, you could be looking for a very long time. But if you find one that gives you what you need and is a place where you can openly worship God without being treated second-class... go for it!
Sadly, it's not jusst church. I find that trying to become a part of any organized group will eventually present problems like this. My views on religion are not really necessary here, so I'll just say that I can understand your frustration. I eventually stopped getting involved in choirs altogether, partly because I just don't like conforming to any group without everyone in the group having an equal say, and partly because I faced similar problems; people not wanting me to do this, that and the other because I'm blind, and I shouldn't have to, or am not capable. Whatever it is that your passion is, whether it's worshipping a God, singing in a choir, or anything else, I've found that open and accepting groups are extremely difficult to find, and I honestly don't understand why you need to be a member of these large organized groups to take part in your passion, whatever it is. You don't have to be in a church to pray to a God, and you don't need to be in a choir to sing. If you really want to be in a group, why not get together with some friends/family who share your passion, and who won't shut you out because of any factor? But I'm not everybody, and some people prefer those large groups. That being the case, best of luck with your search.
I've occasionally gotten the god must have wanted you to be blind for a higher purpose bit and yes, the god must be punishing you bit even less frequently. But I think my biggest beef with organized religion in general, and the biggest reason why I decided not to embrace any specific faith, has less to do with how they react to blindness or other handicaps than the fact that every! religion, regardless of what its individual members may feel, operates at least in part on the belief that it and only it has the right idea and that other, different religions or denomenations within a given religion are completely wrong, regardless of how little or much they might deviate.
Maybe I'm thinking too much, but I'm beginning to think the problem is not religion, but this is a human nature problem. People just can't seem to deal with difference very well in group settings, can they, and sometimes the idea of a truly open and accepting group is more a dream and a wish, something to aspire to but nobody's quite ready to actually put it into practice yet. God, my cynicism is going to get me into trouble one day. LOL!
Granted that's true. But I've especially noticed this closed-mindedness when it comes to religions and their overall attitudes towards each other and towards certain issues.
And yet they claim to respect each other. Very strange, since usually a given religious body thinks it's the only true one, and all the others are false.
And that's just one reason why religion and hypocrisy seem to go hand in hand.
It's funny though, I do know blind people who sing in choirs and seem to be active in their church or other organizations, so I'm not sure exactly what's at fault here. It would be easy to blame the particular blind people who are rejected, but I don't think the answer is that easy and besides, I'd rather not play into the ugly skinhead attitudes towards my fellow blind people. I think what can really hurt is when a group or organization claims to be open and welcoming but when the people are actually having to be face to face with people they might not understand, here comes the big freeze.
I think it's just because of the particular group of people you encounter. While churches do try to dictate how you should act, especially while you're worshipping in them, people will always have their own personalities that will, for better or worse, either clash or coalesce. If there's a particularly strong-willed person in the group who leads by example, the others, the sheep, if you will, who are not only following God but also whoever they think is manifesting Him in their presence, will do whatever they think is acceptable. After all, they think, whoever is laying down the law must be guided by some spiritual direction, since they're in church, so they have to follow along or risk burning in hell. So, if one person plants any seeds of acceptance for people with disabilities, the congregation too will begin to fall on their knees and do the same. If that same person makes it quite clear that disabilities are shameful, or should be pitied, guess what, no one is going to stand up and say that person is wrong. Now, if we were talking about actual scripture here, I would say something completely different. But we're talking about a gathering of mortals, not an interpretation of the Bible, so I believe my point still stands that it's people who run it, it's people who will either embrace or reject anyone who walks through those doors.
I know what makes it pretty simple in the Coast Guard, is you earn your merits and get your respect that way. So when I passed Marine Safety, for instance, or participated in a Security Sweep, I was awarded like anyone else, no more no less on account of vision.
Churches aren't really like that, because they have so many fantasies and tall tales about what blindness means to them: so if you're just a guy, like me, who is perfectly content to do no more no less than carry in loads of boxes and set things up for the wife's homeless outreach program, or sharpen some blades / slice up food for hungry homeless mouths, people in a church thing are likely to concoct hypotheses that involve you being some sort of experiment in so-called healing, or spontaneous regeneration, or they come up with their Version 2.0 which is that you must have some unparalleled access to, or knowledge of, spiritual types of things. Kinda floors them to find out the wife's leanings are more that way, and I'm more interested in doing things concrete.
I will say, I'm sure that I've run into people in the Coast Guard who either thought I wouldn't be able to cut the mustard, or maybe just wondered, but since it's merits-based and not all squishy / malleable / fanciful like the spiritual places all I have to do is either pass muster for a certain qualification, man up and admit that I can't see doing this one / get reassigned, or often just say I'll figure it out.
I'm kinda with you Godzilla, and perhaps the choirs people were so skilled that way, choirs being a hot item in churches, that beliefs aside - or better yet they could just create a Version 3.0 or 4.0 rationalization to get a fit, the gain for them outweighed the loss. And probably the people in question had enough of the same beliefs to make for a match.
Bottom line is, they're gonna do whatever they want, and have that right being the exempt status they're at, and we individuals just gotta balls up and look after ourselves / ours anyway. They rationalize away a lot, not just the blind.
I actually have to agree with Godzilla on this one. I can see many faults in religion, hence why I don't follow one, but I don't think religion itself as an idea is at fault here, just as I don't think communism is to blame for what happened in russia before and during the cold war. Religion presents an opportunity for power, and there will always be humans that seek to exploit that power. People do some pretty crazy, and sometimes outright destructive things in the name of love. does that mean we should rid the world of all love, or that love is to blame for these things? Personally, I don't think so.
I agree. And these days it's almost always about power and/or money. Look at that idiot Harold Camping. If there is a hell I'll be outraged if he doesn't wind up there when he actually has the stroke that finally kills him.